A Message To Mehdi Hasan (ft Orthodox Muslim)

Mohammed HijabHow are you guys doing? I'm joined with Orthodox Muslim. How you doing?

Orthodox MuslimGood. Good. How are you?

Mohammed HijabHow are you finding London?

Orthodox MuslimBeautiful, man. Thank you for having me.

Mohammed HijabMashallah. You're a debater yourself. You've been doing phenomenal work.

Orthodox MuslimYeah. And another person who's a great debater, to be honest, is Mehdi Hasan, who's a very educated...

Mohammed HijabHe's fantastic, fantastic debater. I've seen a lot of his clips, videos online.

Orthodox MuslimYes. But actually something has sparked a little bit of controversy online recently of his. Um, I want you to watch it with me and then come back and let's respond in kind.

Mehdi Hasan's Controversial Stance

Mehdi HasanI think that the problem with education is that it focuses too much on facts, too much on rigor, and not enough on imagination.

Professor JangFacts. Do you hear yourself? You talk about this pretty far-right concept of Pax Judaica, a new world order centered around Israel. Surely you understand why a lot of people think at best you're trafficking in pretty anti-Semitic tropes and at worst you're a card-carrying anti-Semite.

Mehdi HasanSorry. Sorry. What is wrong with the term Pax?

Professor JangYou tell me.

Mohammed HijabSo, as you can see here, I mean, this is a trajectory of Mehdi Hasan, and I want to start off by saying this, right? Mehdi Hasan has been, as we say, an excellent advocate for Palestinian rights. He's been a person who's very vocal against Islamophobia, against proponents against Islam, anti-Islamic proponents, most anti-Muslim opponents. Uh, however, he's also tried to straddle this incongruent kind of middle ground between Islam and left-wing politics. Okay. And the fact is, um, Orthodox, those two things are not compatible, are they?

Orthodox MuslimNo. Absolutely not. No.

Mohammed HijabYeah. So, I mean, he's on the record, um, talking about homosexual rights and how it's bigotry and homophobia and these kind of things, and he apologizes for his previous views. But here he starts speaking about Pax Judea, and he's speaking to Professor Jang, okay, who he, um, questions the qualifications of credentials of in in the, but that's another issue for another day. And he says to Professor Jang, he says to him, "Well, that's an anti-Semitic trope actually mentioning Pax Judea. We shouldn't be mentioning that at all." Is is this a valid criticism, do you think?

Orthodox MuslimNo. No, I I don't think so. Um, it's it's a very Jewish thing actually. It's um...

Mohammed HijabUh, this has to do with the expansion of Israel and greater Israel.

Orthodox MuslimYeah. So, uh, I mean...

Mohammed HijabHe was he was saying, "Why don't you just call it greater Israel? Why do you have to mention Judeica in particular?" Is is there is do you think this is anti-Semitic?

Orthodox MuslimNo. No. It's it's not anti-Semitic. This is what they believe.

Mohammed HijabSo if you go to Genesis 15, for example, um, these are the borders that God promises to Abraham and his descendants. Um, this is restated multiple times in Exodus. It's restated, um, again in Deuteronomy 17, I believe. So this is all the Old Testament, the Torah, Old Testament, what Jews believe is to be divine inspiration.

Orthodox MuslimYes. Yeah. So, I mean, they're they're very open about it. Uh, this is not hidden from anywhere. This is what Jews believe that God promised these lands to them. Uh, these lands are theirs by divine right. Uh, and so no, I don't think there's anything anti-Semitic about it. I think it is the most, quote unquote, Semitic thing, as a matter of fact.

Mohammed HijabAnd and this is a broader trend that we're seeing from a lot of people on the left. And obviously Mehdi Hasan himself is on the left, as we've just mentioned, and he's straddling this impossible middle ground between being on the left on the one hand and being a Muslim on the other, because as we've mentioned, and I keep mentioning this point, but I think it's an important one. There are things which are completely incompatible. Homosexuality is a sin in Islam. Homosexuality is celebrated on the left. For example, you know, feminism is celebrated on the left.

Orthodox MuslimJust break down what he said exactly about homosexuality again.

Mohammed HijabYeah. So he, um, let me read exactly what he said out. Um, we can put it on the screen as well. So this is what he said. Um, he says the following. He says that, "I now believe that you can't really live in a secular society without supporting a legal right to marry for same-sex couples. I do but still cringe, um, as I remember how I made my own contribution to homophobic discourse back in my 20s over a decade ago. I can only apologize." Another place where he says something similar, he says, um, "As you can see here, I've always regretted the dumb and offensive comments I made in my 20s on atheism and homosexuality." So, as you can see, there's two things. And if he's talking about homosexuality as a sin, I I don't know what he believes. I mean, this is something that probably should be asked him, uh, especially from people on the on the left. Does he believe that homosexuality is a sin and therefore the people that are committing it are sinful, or does he believe that it's bigoted in his language to, um, refer to these people in that way?

Orthodox MuslimAnd you know what, it's a fair question because he does represent Muslims politically.

Mohammed HijabYes, he does.

Orthodox MuslimYes. Right. Uh, and so I think it's very fair for him to clarify his position on such a crucial matter. Yeah. Uh, because we all know Islam's very clear on this issue, uh, that homosexuality is sinful. Um, you just have to call a spade a spade. So I'm very interested in in in seeing how he's how he replies to that because it's it's these things that, okay, we want Muslim representation, but we don't want to compromise. And we're seeing the, you know, I think he actually also supports transgender rights. Um, what what's the Islamic stance on that? What's the Islamic stance on feminism? What's the Islamic stance on all these things on the left that are celebrated? So, he's straddling an impossible middle ground, and it's about time he makes a decision and he's clear about what he believes in, but I'm surprised he hasn't been pressed on it.

Mohammed HijabYeah, me too. I mean, I I I see him all over the place, and just to mention again, he is a very eloquent speaker. Yes. Very charismatic, very smart. He knows how to argue. He delivers excellent points. Yes, he does. Um, but these issues must be clarified. And as somebody who again represents Muslims politically on a world stage...

Orthodox MuslimI mean, he's his interviews and his video clips do, uh, tens of millions of views. They do. Um, and you know, we all kinds of demographics, uh, see these. So I think it's important to to clarify because like you said, these are things that we as Muslims, especially in the West, we cannot compromise on. These are these are our values.

Jewish Theology and Anti-Semitism

Mohammed HijabI want to circle back to the point that you were making about Pax Judea and stuff like that and ask you another question because now one of the government definitions, in fact, of anti-Semitism in this country is that if you criticize people on the on on the basis of their religion as a Jew, right?

Orthodox MuslimYeah. But but do we have to subscribe to that, or is it within our right, as the Quran does, to theologically, all right, um, contradict and contravene or repudiate or refute aspects of Jewish theology? Number one. And number two, are there, uh, things that you've read, because you you're a comparative religionist, you've read this stuff and you just speak about this stuff every day in the Talmud, which is I know you're doing a course on. Is that stuff that you...

Orthodox MuslimI'm not doing a course on the Talmud.

Mohammed HijabOh, you know, doing a course on Christianity.

Orthodox MuslimOkay, but I've we've Yeah, I've looked at it.

Mohammed HijabSo, tell me now, I mean, in terms of that, in terms of the Talmud, uh, is it very clear from your reading that in fact there is this mainstream interpretation of otherizing every Gentile person of doing what to every...

Orthodox MuslimLike otherizing them or...

Mohammed HijabOtherizing them? Oh, okay.

Orthodox MuslimUh, yes. So, there's a clear distinction. This is agreed upon by all Jews. Nobody disagrees that, uh, our identity is we are Israel. So we are the children of Israel, and the others are Gentiles. Um, so there are different categories, different labels. They have a label for heretics. They they call them minimetics. They have a label for apostates. They have a label for what they call aliens. M. So these are, um, Gentiles who live in, uh, Eretz Israel, the land of Israel. Okay. And they have classifications for all of these people. But yes, um, this is very clear throughout the Torah and the Talmud, uh, that we are the children of Israel and they are Gentiles. Mhm. Um, as a matter of fact, there are discussions in the in Avodah Zarah in the Talmud, in different rabbinical texts, where Gentiles are, um, said to be, uh, in some discussions, uh, unworthy of life if they are not righteous Gentiles because they do distinguish between a righteous Gentile, that is a Gentile who is a what the rabbinic Jews called Noahide. M. So this term Noahide is not in the Torah, but they do extract it from the Torah. So these are the laws of Noah that Noah and his people followed. So stay away, there's seven. Stay away from sexual immorality, stay away from adultery, from strangled meat, from food sacrifice, things of that sort. All right. Um, and yeah, so you do have rulings in the Talmud, uh, where some rabbis would say that if a, and I'll put it up on the screen, uh, if a Jew murders a Gentile, then he's exempt from punishment.

Mohammed HijabReally?

Orthodox MuslimYeah. Yeah. All kinds of rulings.

Mohammed HijabSo then in that case, I mean, Jang, because his retort to, uh, Mehdi Hasan was that, "What's wrong with this term Pax Judea, right?" Uh, because what what Jang has been doing is also been invoking like secret societies, and I'm not sure if you've heard his, uh, content on that, but he's basically saying that, I mean, some people say it's conspiratorial, but that's a different discussion. Essentially, he's saying that there is some Jewish inspired, okay, um, beliefs that actually come from these texts that you're talking about and that influence the world in the way that we we know it now or we see it now. Is that plausible as a political explanation for you, or is that anti-Semitic, would you say?

Orthodox MuslimNo, I I don't think there's anything anti-Semitic about it because it's it's very clear and it it actually baffles me sometimes because rabbis are very dogmatic on this, as a matter of fact. So there is this one rabbi, and I'm sure many people have heard of him, seen clips of him. Uh, his name is Ysef Mizrahi. M. Okay. So he's, uh, he's there's a very popular clip of him, uh, that everybody knows where he basically says that he says, "Idol worshipper," I'm quoting him word for word, "idol worshipper, they don't have the right to live." And so he starts calculating how many people are in the world. So he goes through India and China and all of these, um, idolator nations, so non-monotheistic nations, and he basically says says that, and he includes Christians as well, and he says, "Idol worshiping Christians." Uh, so he doesn't include Muslims because he views us as monotheistic, obviously. So he says that about 80% of the world does not have the right to live because, and I quote, "They make Hashem angry every single day by their idolatry." And, um, other, uh, comments as well. And these are not things that are, um, uh, kind of extreme. Uh, he's not an extremist Jew. Rather, this is exactly what Talmudic Judaism teaches. And, uh, it it's it's translated as you can go on safaria.org, and everybody can go ahead and read it. Actually, some rabbis would say that a Gentile, uh, is who reads the Torah should be executed. So, this is actually a ruling that exists. So, and again, remember, not all of these rulings are, um, universally agreed upon because, uh, so the Talmud has, uh, discussions between rabbis that go back and forth between, uh, legal rulings and discussions, stuff like that. There there, you know, rulings do exist where if you are a Gentile, you are not allowed to read the Talmud or the Torah because, uh, this is something too holy for you to understand, and this is not sent for you, is rather sent for the children of Israel, right? Uh, so yeah, back to my point, it baffles me that this is they're very vocal about this. If you know, if you go to Israel, all these rabbis that do discussions and speeches, they're very vocal about this. And so if they can say it and they could be vocal about it, then there's nothing wrong with us, uh, pointing it out. There's nothing anti-Semitic about it at all.

Critique of Mehdi Hasan's Stance

Mohammed HijabI mean, because we do talk about the fact that, you know, you've got Zionism, and sometimes we say we we give a Zionist critique. We say this is Zionism, and and it's not all Jewish, uh, people. It's not Judaism. It's we make this distinction so so that we can avoid the anti-Semitic label. But the fact is, this Zionism is not a one-way street. In fact, some of Zionism is inspired by the extreme and radical and supremacist interpretations of Judaism.

Orthodox MuslimThat's right.

Mohammed HijabAnd and I mean, Zean made a very good point actually, which I retweeted and went viral, which is that we speak about radical Islam quite openly. I mean, Western academics speak about radical Islam, but no one no one speaks about radical Judaism. Nobody. And and in fact, if you look at the Talmud and these, you know, scriptures that you're talking about, um, it's all there. And so, look, I I think that Mehdi Hasan is doing this because there's an aspect of him, with respect, and I don't want to disrespect anybody here, because he's, as I say, a great advocate for Palestine. He's a careerist. He's doing this because he's a journalist, right? And he's trying to further his career. And that's what journalists do. But one could, if I was to be very harsh, say, "Well, don't, you know, wait for a pat on the head, okay, from the left-wing colonizer to try and prop up left-wing left, you know, liberal talking points at the expense of the Islamic discourse." I mean, he's on the record already speaking about blasphemy laws or apostasy laws and attacking these things and countries that do it. He attacks theocracies, and he doesn't like it. We don't even know where he stands. So my message to Mehdi Hasan would be the following is that we have to really come to get to the bottom of what do you believe in? Do you believe in secularism or do you believe in, um, Islam Islam governed systems? It doesn't have to be a particular, you know, representation that, like, for example, Iran or interpretation. We're talking about the actual premise. And if you don't believe in Islam being implemented, then what do you do of the verses in the Quran which clearly indicate that doing the opposite of that is, for example, um, you know, "Do you prefer the or the judgment of?" What do you do of the verses in the Quran that talk about homosexuality? Are they wrong? Is the Quran wrong? Is the Quran a bigoted book? What do you do of the, um, verse in the Quran which criticizes the Jewish clergy? That the similitude of the one who holds the Torah and doesn't uphold it is like the donkey carrying back books on his back and many other criticisms of Judaism as a religion. Are these anti-Semitic aspects of the Quran? Are you willing to concede that these are questions I have? I'm really surprised because he interrogates nobody because he considers himself a Muslim or he considers a Shia Muslim, and this is not a Shia Sunni issue anyway. Nobody has had the thought in their mind, "Okay, he says he's a Muslim and he says he's a left-wing liberal. These things are incommensurate. They're incongruent or otherwise incompatible. Let's ask him if the Quran is wrong here or if the Quran is right. And if the Quran is right and meant for all times and places, then how do you excuse X, Y, and Z?"

Orthodox MuslimWell, remember, uh, when you were reading his tweet earlier, he's saying that he, uh, he's he feels apologetic towards his dumb comments and dumb views. So, I'm wondering, does he think that what the Quran says is dumb? Does he does he think that, uh, the Quranic, uh, position on these issues is cringey, like he said? M. So it's interesting.

Mohammed HijabAnd to be honest, these are questions that we said the same thing with Hamza Yusuf, the not the Sufis, but the, uh, politician. Yeah. Um, we said the same thing about, uh, what do you call it? Manny, who he supports, by the way, unconditionally, by the looks of it as well. And he was kind of like a mascot for him in his...

Orthodox MuslimYeah.

Mohammed HijabCampaign. And we we have the right to ask him the same question. He's a public figure, like you said, representing Muslims. These questions need to be asked. Now, based on your answers to these questions, left-wing people will know what you are, Muslim people will know what you are, and then we can all deal with you accordingly. But at the moment, you're trying to straddle an impossible middle ground. And I hope that you come to your senses and come back to the Quran of Sunnah, come back to the book of Allah and represent Muslims because you will be, as you already are, a shining star in our community, uh, for conservative Islam, actually the true Islam. And with that, um, is there anything you want to say at the end of it?

Orthodox MuslimNo, no, that's it. Um, looking forward to hear back, I guess.

Mohammed HijabYes. Well, with that, we conclude.